Knocking on the Forbidden Door – The Wrestling Estate

In this week’s edition of The Wrestling Estate Roundtable, the staff discusses their Forbidden Door, Crossover Shows and the differences between the Japanese and Western style.

Thoughts on crossover shows? Can everybody shine?

Steven Jackson

Crossover shows are always interesting. Mainly because of the dream matches and moments that come with them. Booking and politics is the real elephant in the room though. Making two companies appear equal is very difficult and I don’t think it ever really works. The only real exceptions I can think of are the “All Together” Puroresu shows, where all the talents wrestle together for a mutual cause, and possibly Global Wars 2014, the first crossover show between ROH and NJPW. That’s because each company wrestled matches involving their own talent and didn’t book dream matches against wrestlers from each promotion.

That’s a unique way to do it, but it was fun.

Curt Lemon

In theory it’s a great concept, and yes everyone can shine. However, the biggest issue I see with the show is that AEW fans are expected to know who all of their counterparts are already. I feel AEW needs to do a much better job of informing us who these people are and why we should want to see the match. UFC does it in two minutes before every single fight.

Harvey Garcia

With how little crossovers there are on the bigger stages, every crossover we get to have is a step in the right direction. The first Forbidden Door was a great celebration of both AEW and NJPW as pro wrestling giants — and we can all agree that that card was far from the ceiling.

Juan Bautista

The crossover show concept is an excellent show concept. They don’t need to happen too often. NJPW is a great company to work with because of diversity present in there talent. I would love it if maybe Impact got an opportunity to do a show of this magnitude to put on a show. I don’t think it needs to be complicated to book this show. Obviously every match can’t end in a draw. The World Champions are most likely not losing unless a plan is in place to add to a larger story. They are probably going to trade a few wins and reserve a draw for a top tier match.

Russ Good

I’ll be honest here – and this answer will flavor how readers will treat my opinions that follow – and say that I’m not the biggest follower of a wide variety of wrestling. I watch Raw, NXT, Dynamite, and the occasional SmackDown and Rampage. So while I’ve watched the previous Forbidden Door show and have caught the occasional New Japan show, I’m not invested in those characters or stories. That being said, I am familiar with Will Ospreay and Kazuchika Okada, and I’m the kind of wrestling fan who will gladly seek out recommended matches to familiarize myself with the talent facing my favorites.

I think crossover shows like Forbidden Door are great for American fans like myself, who sometimes need a little push to broaden our horizons. Whether Japanese fans need the same to seek out American talent is not for me to say, but I feel like both companies benefit from the added exposure. The lower card matches are usually easy to book, pitting B-tier talent from one company against A-tier performers from the other, allowing rising stars a chance to look even better while not actively destroying the newer or younger talent in the process.

The “dream matches,” I imagine, are harder to balance. Does the bigger star always need to win? And who decides who the bigger star is in the case of the matches that have already been announced? At last year’s show, the decision to use factions and teams that already involved AEW and NJPW talent was a smart way around direct company-versus-company competition, and I’m looking forward to more of those matches to introduce me to both the history and the talent that New Japan has by the truckload.

Jack Goodwillie

I think they’re a lot of fun. My opinion on them is overall positive, however, I don’t love the fact that every year, AEW fans are going to get a crossover show with NJPW where all the company storylines just get put on pause so we can get some crazy matches. I’d much rather a cohesive, episodic style where a crossover can come into play when needed.

Can everybody shine? It’s tough! In wrestling, we like decisive outcomes. Decisive outcomes means one company will usually come out looking better than the other. That was also (part of) why the Invasion Angle failed. Don’t get me wrong, the angle was hurt from the start with its lack of starpower, but Vince McMahon being totally unwilling to give the Alliance any sustained period of dominance did irreparable harm to the faction as being any kind of threat. It takes a talented mind with a strong vision to be able to pull this type of angle off, but while I don’t think Tony Khan is that guy, it’s tough to deny the positive feedback last year’s show got, necessitating a sequel.

John Corrigan

I love the concept of a crossover show and based on the feedback to the inaugural Forbidden Door, Tony booked that well. If WWE ever committed to the brand split, a crossover show at WrestleMania would’ve been epic. Instead, we were subjected to the “battle for brand supremacy” bullshit at Survivor Series year after year.

Which are you more excited for? Danielson vs. Okada, or Omega vs. Osprey? Or neither?

Steven Jackson

I’m really excited for both matches, but because it’ll be the first time Okada and Bryan Danielson touch, that’s got the edge for me.

Curt Lemon

Again, I’ve been told by (the internet) people that these are two very good opponents. However I feel that AEW hasn’t proved that, particularly with Okada. At least Ospreay has been on TV. I know that at the end of the last PPV, they had a surprise from New Japan but it seemed like the crowd had no idea who it was and I still am not sure.

Harvey Garcia

I love Kenny Omega. I’ve warmed up to Ospreay’s growth outside of wrestling. I didn’t love their match at Wrestle Kingdom. That said, I’d prefer to see a sequel that needs to happen because the beef’s not done, and I could watch these two slander each other for a long time.

But make no mistake about it, Okada v Danielson is the big match of Forbidden Door 2023. I am going insane just thinking about it. I try not to have huge expectations in wrestling, but it’s so difficult with this match. I just really want to know what would happen if Okada ever attempts a Rainmaker on Danielson — am I going to be all right? Are we going to die?

Juan Bautista

Speaking of top tier matches, this is gonna be some night. I believe the excitement level will be higher for Okada vs Danielson because we haven’t seen that match before. It’s also perfect because Danielson is a heel and if he does to Okada what he did to AJ, all hell will break loose. Omega and Ospreay can only have a match so many times before it needs to change.

Russ Good

These are both “dream matches” despite one being part of a series, and the other being a first-time event. There are different reasons to look forward to both!

Ospreay versus Omega has proven to be an amazing matchup, as we’ve seen in their previous encounter on January 4th of this year. Getting a rematch of that all-timer, with the built-in bar they have raised to astronomical heights, is a gift all wrestling fans should appreciate.

Danielson facing Okada is the match I didn’t know I wanted, but a lot of fans have been waiting for. Once it was announced, I was reflexively bummed that we weren’t getting the Zack Sabre, Jr. versus Danielson match that we were promised last year. But after that, I realized that the contrast in styles of these two men should tear the house down. How excited am I for this match? There’s a non-zero chance that I will be streaming Forbidden Door on my phone during my cabin-in-the-woods vacation just so I don’t miss this one. My wife will understand…right?

Jack Goodwillie

It’s Danielson vs. Okada for me. I don’t rate Ospreay quite as high as most, though the talent is visible, and I think Omega’s best days are pretty much behind him, at least in terms of having these peak matches against the Ospreays and Okadas of the world. However, it’s more because of how the Danielson-Okada match has been a long time coming. Plus, it’s going to deliver. There’s not much greater of a “free space” one can have on a wrestling card, in my opinion.

John Corrigan

I’m interested in neither the Okada match nor the Ospreay match. I’m not a NJPW fan, so these people mean nothing to me.

What part of Japanese wrestling can American wrestling benefit from?

Steven Jackson

I definitely feel (and my friend Thom Fain of Monthly Puroresu agrees with me on this) that having much stronger feeling of legitimacy would make a massive difference to wrestling in the USA. By this I mean that the matches are more akin to combat sports, with the ‘fighting spirit’ coming out a lot more in competitors.

It takes away the ‘real and/or fake’ debate that’s still a shadow to this day in the West.

Curt Lemon

Being trained the right way, and only after that training is fully done will you have your first match. It seems like every other week in independent wrestling you hear about another “trainer” taking advantage of a student here in the States. I can’t recall a single case of that happening overseas.

Harvey Garcia

I like American wrestling as is.

Juan Bautista

The seriousness and presentation. It is night and day. I like the Tokyo Dome show because of the simple stage. A championship match in NJPW feels 10 times more important at certain moments then in the states.

Russ Good

I’ll recuse myself from the next two questions as I’m not well versed enough in Puroresu to impose my very North American knowledge base on the other style. I will say that maybe a balance between the respectful atmosphere of Japanese shows and the occasional “take over the show” intensity of American fans could balance each other out in a way that would benefit both shows, however.

Jack Goodwillie

The sports-based presentation. It’s not something that any major wrestling company has been able to tap into as of yet. Sure, AEW does W/L records and rankings, but does anybody care? It seems like there’s parts of the sports presentation they pull from, but as a fan, I feel completely taken out of that the lack of stories and lack of sports-based motivations for the characters. Jim Ross tries to fill in the blanks from time to time, but the commitment just isn’t quite there. With NJPW, there are tournaments, there is silverware for the winners, and winning the tournaments (almost) always has positive ramifications for the winner.

Adam Cole and Britt Baker won the inaugural Owen Hart Cup last year. Are they any better off for it? Does it matter?

John Corrigan

Based on the limited NJPW I’ve seen, the presentation has always stuck out. The entranceways are grandiose and, similar to UFC, creates a “big-fight feel” that WWE and AEW should strive to adopt on a more consistent basis. For example, Backlash had a different vibe because of the unique entranceway, and as a result, it’s a show I won’t soon forget.

What part of American wrestling can Japanese wrestling benefit from?

Steven Jackson

Japanese wrestling would really benefit from more spontaneity. There’s an embedded hierarchical structure in place, which although works, occasionally could be moved out of to give fans added excitement they never expected to see.

Curt Lemon

Crowd interaction. One thing that has always slowed my interest in Japanese wrestling has been the painfully silent crowds. To me, it’s at the point of awkwardness.

Harvey Garcia

I like Japanese wrestling as is.

Juan Bautista

I wouldn’t apply anything from the American style at the moment. There is too much that has transferred to there style.

Jack Goodwillie

Connection. Japanese wrestlers, for a long time, struggled in North America. There are a number of reasons for this, and Vince’s creative in WWE is not blameless for typecasting otherwise talented wrestlers into hollow, pointless comic relief roles. However, the Japanese product can be so-sports based and so rooted in reality, it can make for an ecosystem where there are 100 above average wrestlers on the roster but few above average characters.

Shinsuke Nakamura shattered the mold. I always knew he would from the moment I first watched him at Wrestle Kingdom 9, and then had my opinion validated when I saw him interact with an ROH crowd for the first time. Now there are many more guys who I think could thrive if regularly exposed to Western audiences. Hiromu Takahashi certainly comes to mind. I’ll also say Triple H has done a great job of elevating those to come from a Puro background. Asuka is obviously the female Nakamura in many ways, and the departed Kairi Sane and Io Sky really progressed in that area.

Could someone like a Hirooki Goto or Katsuyori Shibata have found similar success? It’s tough to say.

John Corrigan

I don’t watch enough puro to answer this, but I wish AEW did more to explain who are the Japanese wrestlers that swing by every so often. While you can argue that every promotion needs to invest in more character development, it’s especially crucial when these “stars” I’ve never heard of come to AEW for matches with stars I’ve actually heard of, but I’m made to feel like a fool for not knowing how “special” this matchup is. Give me video packages showing why I should care about Okada, Ospreay, etc.

One wrestling show to rule them all; Any wrestler, any company. What is your main event?

Steven Jackson

Minoru Suzuki vs. Gunther. Let Battle Commence!

Curt Lemon

Nick Aldis vs. Cody Rhodes III. It was the biggest independent wrestling match of all time for a reason. I would love to see them complete the trilogy.

Harvey Garcia

The honest answer is Okada v Danielson, but that’s already happening. So, Jamie Hayter v Kairi, but Hayter’s hurt right now.

Final answer: Orange Cassidy v Minoru Suzuki.

Juan Bautista

Josh Alexander vs. Okada.

Russ Good

Seth Rollins versus Omega is the first answer that popped into my head when I read this question. Their styles, personalities, and movesets would make for a great match. I know it’s not in the spirit of this roundtable, however, so I’ll throw in the CM Punk versus Hiroshi Tanahashi match we didn’t get at last year’s Forbidden Door. It’s not what it could have been five or ten years ago, but I’m sure those two would still do their best to put together a solid encounter.

Jack Goodwillie

“Rainmaker” Okada vs. Roman Reigns. Okada now has the longevity to pair with his prodigious talent, and Reigns is in a similar boat. It’s the Best of the East vs. Best of the West. A true all-star game feel for a wrestling match, and that’s how a crossover card should feel.